The Problem of Spooks: Part One
Jul. 23rd, 2011 10:58 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dweomeroflightI've been meaning to write Spooks meta forever but I kept putting it off because I have so much to say, not all of which is complimentary. I love Spooks as a show (most of the time), I love the characters, the actors and the whole "spying thing." I based the title for this post off Neil Gaiman's 'The Problem of Susan': a critical response to C.S.Lewis' treatment of Susan Pevensie in the Chronicles of Narnia. This is because I believe as a writer that critical engagement with a text is important.
In a later post, I will look back and highlight things that have been problematic for Spooks for awhile now (circa s4 and 5) but first I really think I need to deal with Spooks, series nine as myself and![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
the_silverdoe keep spamming up our flist's entries with random Nine Meta and I feel sorry for my poor flist.
There has been so much fandom wank over series nine. So much so that it is very difficult to have an opinion on the matter anywhere but your own blog. It was this wankery that had me leave the forums due to refusal to allow alternative opinions and fan silencing. I was labelled weird things like "intellectual snob" for pointing out the very obvious... "Lucas and John SAY WHAT?" But the thing is, I'm not one to be silenced and I feel like if I just write this all out I will feel alot better and stop annoying everyone with my meta left, right and centre.
Ah. Spooks series nine. Was Lucas North in 9.7 and 8 a character assasination? Was it a case of deconstruction? I don't know if the answers to these questions particularly matter and I don't know if I would go that far myself because what I care about is the quality of the writing itself. What does matter is wether or not the story made sense. Wether or not this made for a logical progression from s7 through to the final reveal in 9.8. The simple answer to this is that no it did not.
And now on to my s9 fandom gripe. There seems to be an odd perception amongst certain people in Spooks fandom that if you disliked Lucas is John story you must be a batshit crazy Armitage Army supporter, or at the very least a person who doesn't mind the odd fantasy about RA and therefore got unjustifyably annoyed when his character ceased to be the hero (the writers seem to number amongst these people from one interview in particular). Such an assertion is frankly idiotic. One can be invested in a character without them being your favourite one or being their fangirl having sexy dreams about them. One can have a favourite character who is bad (HELLO BELLATRIX LESTRANGE/or closer to Spooks spygran/Connie) and still like their character and storyline. It's a very simple equation. Things just have to make sense.
The problem with Spooks series nine and Lucas is John is that without a lot of magical explaining away and filling in gaps yourself it didn't make for an understandable plot. Spooks s7 established an ambiguous plotline re Harry and Lucas and Russian prison and trust issues. This was kind of continued on the side in s8, but mainly Lucas' dedication and loyalty to the team was emphasised. Therefore, the logical plot progression from this point is to have a storyline involving Russia and Harry and the morals and ethics of torture and spooking and most importantly loyalty. Series nine wildly sidestepped this dangling plot thread by creating a new convoluted plot. I'm not saying the plot could never have worked with alot of thought, but never in eight episodes with two new characters in Maya and Vaugn plus a suitcase plus fake file Albany plus Chinese involvement it was all too much! For any writer to coherently manage! Not only that, we were told that Lucas had somehow repressed his personality and had faked being someone else for years, the ultimate betrayer, despite the shows previous insistence on his excessive loyalty. And MI5 had never noticed this.
At this point I will quote another blogger because they said this so much more eloquently than me, Lucas North... Nowhere Man, Mr In Between, The Man Who Never Was. All are fitting, I think, because there are no concise means to capture this enigma in a vortex of illogic that was Lucas' ill-fated storyline and character in Spooks Series 9. When Maya said in 9.8 "You know how I knew it was the truth? Because for the first time you made sense," I agree with Vicky Frost at The Guardian. That's bloody optimistic Maya. Lucas makes less sense than ever before.
The blogger goes on to say, Many have commented on the complete abrogation of this character by the middle of Series 9 for the sake of introducing a psychopath who can't be a psychopath, imaginatively named Bateman. Who is John Bateman? Lucas' alter ego? A split personality? No, he is a remorseless murderer who dreamed 15 years of a noble and self-sacrificial life as an MI 5 Agent, who, then, willy nilly, went back to killing without conscience for the sake of true love and an innocence he never possessed. Lucas/John was all over the place ashestia8 pointed out. One second he was cold blooded and hyper organised and devilishly intelligent. The next he was a snivelling coward with a soft heart who just wanted "To be someone." Well so do I writers, so do I. But I didn't think killing someone would give me my dream identity.
Nothing that happened to not-Lucas could ever be tragic. Nothing was. That he escape or died? A mere bagatelle. After all his banging on, not-Lucas slipped quietly away, unmourned. There was nothing tragic about any part of his life. Not Lucas=John just sos you know ;) And every word of this rings true. John was a cipher, a blank slate, a black spot of evil to prove a point. And this is the reason I suspect, that many fans said they felt nothing when he died.
Now we get onto what is most relevant to me: With the advent of John, the only thing truly tragic about Lucas is that his story was never played out. It was replaced. And Lucas ceased to exist. But all of John's suffering belonged to Lucas and will always belong to Lucas of Series 7 and 8. Not only have the writers ignored the trajectory of Lucas in s7 and 8, they have also ruined fans perceptions of him in those earlier seasons. How difficult is it to block out John now we have seen series nine? How is it possible to seperate Lucas from John when nine is the only complete answer about his character that we will ever get? As the blogger writes, Lucas is not even dignified with any sort of ending, never mind a noble one. He doesn't go out with a bang or a whimper. Meanwhile, the character of Bateman, absurdly, can only pretend to have Lucas' qualities, and pretend to have his emotions and behaviour, like some overgrown sock puppet.
The Lucas is John story is an enormous copout, not just for Lucas/RA/Harry fans, but also and here's the part I wish certain people would get into their thick skulls anyone who was remotely interested in and invested in the Lucas storyline As Spooks has always sold itself as a character ensemble show, it is logical to assume that people are following more than one characters storyline. When a main characters storyline makes about as much sense as inviting Darth Vadar with his deathstar to your wedding, can you blame fans generally, RA fans or otherwise, for getting miffed?
Which brings me to another point. One three star Amazon reviewer wrote a lukewarm but still positive review about Spooks Nine mentioning that in the past it had been claimed that the scripts highlighted the actors talents. In this case, the person wrote, it was a case of the actors salvaging the script. And on the Spooks forum another, more critical person, wrote that the situation with Spooks had always been one of "high hokum fun," as PF said, and really, when have most of the situations ever been strictly believable? No, what anchors people to Spooks is the characters the one constant is connecting with the characters whichever ones they may be.
The Spooks nine writers made the mistake of using ridiculous plotlines with a ridiculous character progression (and it worries me that they seemed to have not learnt from this in terms of s10) and for some fans this has completely shattered both faith in the show and the beliveability factor. Before there was a realness to the characters, they were knowable. With the Lucas storyline there is no believability if you watch the show in sequence, we are not graced with the knowable in how John operates as Lucas, and this leaves us with what? Writers who effectively can retcon any story they like without caring what the fans think because there is so much wankery over the whole thing. And ultimately this is my problem with those who attempt to shut people like me down when we point these things out, when they claim us all to be either elitist snobs or Armitage Army Crazies; these Spooks fans silence an entire section of their own fandom and at the same time, give the writers legitimacy; legitimacy to do the whole thing all over again, perhaps with an even more popular character, with just as little respect for invested viewers.
Storytelling matters, and shock value won't keep fans forever. Have some respect for the show, for its characters, and for your audience who watches it,who would like some answers and would like to not have their intelligence insulted. I'm not saying writers should write to please everyone. They shouldn't. But they do need to respect that the audience is invested in longrunning characters, characters who already have a backstory that has yet to be explained and who already have certain canon traits set out. Respect is not an exclusive right handed to a privelaged few in the audience, it should extend to everyone, regardless of if they are involved with the Armitage Army gang or not. Lucas fans have just as much right to expect a sensible character trajectory for Lucas as Ruth fans expect the same for Ruth, Harry fans for Harry. Their opinion as hardcore RA fans, my opinion as a general Spooks fan, is perfectly as valid as yours.
And on that note I leave you with a question. If it had been Harry with the double life or even Ruth how many people would still be lauding the existential genius of the writers?
In a later post, I will look back and highlight things that have been problematic for Spooks for awhile now (circa s4 and 5) but first I really think I need to deal with Spooks, series nine as myself and
the_silverdoe keep spamming up our flist's entries with random Nine Meta and I feel sorry for my poor flist.There has been so much fandom wank over series nine. So much so that it is very difficult to have an opinion on the matter anywhere but your own blog. It was this wankery that had me leave the forums due to refusal to allow alternative opinions and fan silencing. I was labelled weird things like "intellectual snob" for pointing out the very obvious... "Lucas and John SAY WHAT?" But the thing is, I'm not one to be silenced and I feel like if I just write this all out I will feel alot better and stop annoying everyone with my meta left, right and centre.
Ah. Spooks series nine. Was Lucas North in 9.7 and 8 a character assasination? Was it a case of deconstruction? I don't know if the answers to these questions particularly matter and I don't know if I would go that far myself because what I care about is the quality of the writing itself. What does matter is wether or not the story made sense. Wether or not this made for a logical progression from s7 through to the final reveal in 9.8. The simple answer to this is that no it did not.
And now on to my s9 fandom gripe. There seems to be an odd perception amongst certain people in Spooks fandom that if you disliked Lucas is John story you must be a batshit crazy Armitage Army supporter, or at the very least a person who doesn't mind the odd fantasy about RA and therefore got unjustifyably annoyed when his character ceased to be the hero (the writers seem to number amongst these people from one interview in particular). Such an assertion is frankly idiotic. One can be invested in a character without them being your favourite one or being their fangirl having sexy dreams about them. One can have a favourite character who is bad (HELLO BELLATRIX LESTRANGE/or closer to Spooks spygran/Connie) and still like their character and storyline. It's a very simple equation. Things just have to make sense.
The problem with Spooks series nine and Lucas is John is that without a lot of magical explaining away and filling in gaps yourself it didn't make for an understandable plot. Spooks s7 established an ambiguous plotline re Harry and Lucas and Russian prison and trust issues. This was kind of continued on the side in s8, but mainly Lucas' dedication and loyalty to the team was emphasised. Therefore, the logical plot progression from this point is to have a storyline involving Russia and Harry and the morals and ethics of torture and spooking and most importantly loyalty. Series nine wildly sidestepped this dangling plot thread by creating a new convoluted plot. I'm not saying the plot could never have worked with alot of thought, but never in eight episodes with two new characters in Maya and Vaugn plus a suitcase plus fake file Albany plus Chinese involvement it was all too much! For any writer to coherently manage! Not only that, we were told that Lucas had somehow repressed his personality and had faked being someone else for years, the ultimate betrayer, despite the shows previous insistence on his excessive loyalty. And MI5 had never noticed this.
At this point I will quote another blogger because they said this so much more eloquently than me, Lucas North... Nowhere Man, Mr In Between, The Man Who Never Was. All are fitting, I think, because there are no concise means to capture this enigma in a vortex of illogic that was Lucas' ill-fated storyline and character in Spooks Series 9. When Maya said in 9.8 "You know how I knew it was the truth? Because for the first time you made sense," I agree with Vicky Frost at The Guardian. That's bloody optimistic Maya. Lucas makes less sense than ever before.
The blogger goes on to say, Many have commented on the complete abrogation of this character by the middle of Series 9 for the sake of introducing a psychopath who can't be a psychopath, imaginatively named Bateman. Who is John Bateman? Lucas' alter ego? A split personality? No, he is a remorseless murderer who dreamed 15 years of a noble and self-sacrificial life as an MI 5 Agent, who, then, willy nilly, went back to killing without conscience for the sake of true love and an innocence he never possessed. Lucas/John was all over the place as
hestia8 pointed out. One second he was cold blooded and hyper organised and devilishly intelligent. The next he was a snivelling coward with a soft heart who just wanted "To be someone." Well so do I writers, so do I. But I didn't think killing someone would give me my dream identity.Nothing that happened to not-Lucas could ever be tragic. Nothing was. That he escape or died? A mere bagatelle. After all his banging on, not-Lucas slipped quietly away, unmourned. There was nothing tragic about any part of his life. Not Lucas=John just sos you know ;) And every word of this rings true. John was a cipher, a blank slate, a black spot of evil to prove a point. And this is the reason I suspect, that many fans said they felt nothing when he died.
Now we get onto what is most relevant to me: With the advent of John, the only thing truly tragic about Lucas is that his story was never played out. It was replaced. And Lucas ceased to exist. But all of John's suffering belonged to Lucas and will always belong to Lucas of Series 7 and 8. Not only have the writers ignored the trajectory of Lucas in s7 and 8, they have also ruined fans perceptions of him in those earlier seasons. How difficult is it to block out John now we have seen series nine? How is it possible to seperate Lucas from John when nine is the only complete answer about his character that we will ever get? As the blogger writes, Lucas is not even dignified with any sort of ending, never mind a noble one. He doesn't go out with a bang or a whimper. Meanwhile, the character of Bateman, absurdly, can only pretend to have Lucas' qualities, and pretend to have his emotions and behaviour, like some overgrown sock puppet.
The Lucas is John story is an enormous copout, not just for Lucas/RA/Harry fans, but also and here's the part I wish certain people would get into their thick skulls anyone who was remotely interested in and invested in the Lucas storyline As Spooks has always sold itself as a character ensemble show, it is logical to assume that people are following more than one characters storyline. When a main characters storyline makes about as much sense as inviting Darth Vadar with his deathstar to your wedding, can you blame fans generally, RA fans or otherwise, for getting miffed?
Which brings me to another point. One three star Amazon reviewer wrote a lukewarm but still positive review about Spooks Nine mentioning that in the past it had been claimed that the scripts highlighted the actors talents. In this case, the person wrote, it was a case of the actors salvaging the script. And on the Spooks forum another, more critical person, wrote that the situation with Spooks had always been one of "high hokum fun," as PF said, and really, when have most of the situations ever been strictly believable? No, what anchors people to Spooks is the characters the one constant is connecting with the characters whichever ones they may be.
The Spooks nine writers made the mistake of using ridiculous plotlines with a ridiculous character progression (and it worries me that they seemed to have not learnt from this in terms of s10) and for some fans this has completely shattered both faith in the show and the beliveability factor. Before there was a realness to the characters, they were knowable. With the Lucas storyline there is no believability if you watch the show in sequence, we are not graced with the knowable in how John operates as Lucas, and this leaves us with what? Writers who effectively can retcon any story they like without caring what the fans think because there is so much wankery over the whole thing. And ultimately this is my problem with those who attempt to shut people like me down when we point these things out, when they claim us all to be either elitist snobs or Armitage Army Crazies; these Spooks fans silence an entire section of their own fandom and at the same time, give the writers legitimacy; legitimacy to do the whole thing all over again, perhaps with an even more popular character, with just as little respect for invested viewers.
Storytelling matters, and shock value won't keep fans forever. Have some respect for the show, for its characters, and for your audience who watches it,who would like some answers and would like to not have their intelligence insulted. I'm not saying writers should write to please everyone. They shouldn't. But they do need to respect that the audience is invested in longrunning characters, characters who already have a backstory that has yet to be explained and who already have certain canon traits set out. Respect is not an exclusive right handed to a privelaged few in the audience, it should extend to everyone, regardless of if they are involved with the Armitage Army gang or not. Lucas fans have just as much right to expect a sensible character trajectory for Lucas as Ruth fans expect the same for Ruth, Harry fans for Harry. Their opinion as hardcore RA fans, my opinion as a general Spooks fan, is perfectly as valid as yours.
And on that note I leave you with a question. If it had been Harry with the double life or even Ruth how many people would still be lauding the existential genius of the writers?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:45 am (UTC)Almost everything I think and ever wanted to say about this horrible storyline is there! At least we can meta spam this post now. ;)
Therefore, the logical plot progression from this point is to have a storyline involving Russia and Harry and the morals and ethics of torture and spooking and most importantly loyalty.
YES, YES, AND YES! When I read articles about s9 before the airing, and they talked about loyalty, I thought it was going to be about Russia, and Lucas and Harry finally having a confrontation, because there is something about this storyline that is unfinished, and we will never know what the key to Real!Lucas's story was. That's what angers me the most. That and the fact that the writers didn't give a sh*t about us and the previous writers who created Lucas. Like I said in another comment, I believe in ethics in writing. Apparently, they don't.
Not only have the writers ignored the trajectory of Lucas in s7 and 8, they have also ruined fans perceptions of him in those earlier seasons. How difficult is it to block out John now we have seen series nine? How is it possible to seperate Lucas from John when nine is the only complete answer about his character that we will ever get?
I'm not sure I agree with this point. I've been re-watching some s7 and s8 eps and I only see Lucas, I don't think about John, and for a simple reason: RA didn't/couldn't act in the same way in s9. So my percerption of real!Lucas stops the moment his acting changes. Therefore I don't see John at all when I watch him in s7, I just keep thinking "We will never know what happened to him and it's a shame".
No, what anchors people to Spooks is the characters the one constant is connecting with the characters whichever ones they may be.
Absolutely. What's fantastic about Spooks is that basically it only takes me one ep to like a character because they're so well-written. But if we have to look at them and think "Is he who he is supposed to be? Is he for real or just a joke?" then it doesn't work anymore.
But they do need to respect that the audience is invested in longrunning characters, characters who already have a backstory that has yet to be explained and who already have certain canon traits set out. Respect is not an exclusive right handed to a privelaged few in the audience, it should extend to everyone, regardless of if they are involved with the Armitage Army gang or not.
I agree. They decided to destroy Lucas, but not Ruth or Harry. They made the easy choice, and that's unfair to people who liked Lucas. Although I am really, really scared for Harry in s10. Same thing I said before about Real!Lucas's storyline not being resolved, and here you reach the point that matters the most to me: our investment as viewers in the characters. This is why I felt betrayed. They took the liberty of erasing everything that had been built, and therefore erased emotional bonds as well. Because I couldn't care about s9 Lucas, he was not Lucas anymore. And yes, I have emotional bonds when it comes to characters. I always do, every book, every movie, every TV show, I relate to characters and invest in them. And writers should never be allowed to destroy that. I mean these bonds wouldn't have been destroyed if the story had made sense. I still love Connie, still loved Ros in s6 (though I hate the storyline, but for other reasons), and you mentioned Gisborne at my LJ, well I still liked Gisborne after the s2 finale because it made sense. His character wasn't destroyed. Lucas was, and there was no way we could keep any connection to him, they erased it all.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:46 am (UTC)9.1. Ros is dead and I missed her terribly, I know I'm not the only one. Lucas was meant to replace her as Section Chief, it was the logical thing. Therefore I think we should have been able to trust him and rely on him as a replacement for Ros, at least for a few episodes , as we already knew him and, for some of us, cared for him as a character. What did the writers do? They invented a massive unbelievable betrayal from the character we were supposed to emotionally rely on in this series. How was it supposed to work? I felt like I couldn't rest.
I think, in a psychological way, readers/viewers need to be able to depend on a character they trust in order to carry on with the story. But, here: no more Lucas, Harry not knowing what to do anymore and drowned in his not-relationship with Ruth storyline, therefore he couldn't be badass Harry anymore and save the day. Ruth was brilliant but obviously on the verge of depression, Beth was not to be trusted immediately, and Tariq's only the techie. The only character left was Dimitri, hence, imo, the massive investment in Dimitri from the fandom. And I know, I did it too!
And this is another reason why we didn't/couldn't accept this storyline imo, added to the other many obvious reasons you wrote about. :)
If it had been Ruth or Harry? I think more people would've been angry. Many people say: "Oh yeah, Lucas, it was bad", but don't really care. I think it would've been totally different for Ruth and Harry.
Although, personnally, with a good and decent storyline, relating to Cyprus and all, I think Ruth could have become bad and I wouldn't have minded, I could have enjoyed it if it had made sense, of course !
Harry... I don't know. Believable or not believable, I don't want him to be bad. Because I emotionally rely on him from the very beginning. It's Harry, for God's sake. In the end, he's the hero of the show, the only one who's always been there. Please, don't touch Harry. My little heart needs him to remain the same.
(I am sorry about the massive comment. They wouldn't let me post it all in one comment! I guess I needed to say some things too. Great, great post you wrote! I'm going to create a "Spooks meta" keyword in my memories and put this post in it. ;))
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 03:15 pm (UTC)Funny you should mention Ruth and Cyprus. I was dead set certain that was the line they would take at first. I have a meta fic about it on the backburner. I would have liked that storyline too if it would have made sense. NO. Much as I dislike Harry, he could never be actively bad. Morally dubious yes but bad no!
YAY FOR BEING MEM'D.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 05:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 05:38 pm (UTC)I only watched Robin Hood for RA as the nuanced Guy. I found him endlessly interesting to watch. But I liked Robin and Marian and the Sheriff well enough for the kind of story that was being told :) I AGREE RE SHERIFF.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 05:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 09:25 pm (UTC)Also, wouldn't people become invested in characters if you give them a good storyline? At least the chance of it would become higher surely?
This! Personally I can't separate the experience as reader/viewer and investment in character.
And actually it's not for the writer to decide if his/her characters will be invested in by the audience. But if a character is well-written, people will invest in him; not everybody, but some people. Even if said character is not likable or anything. Hello Severus Snape pre-book 7!
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 09:38 pm (UTC)Oh yeah? You mean in s8 or 9? Because I would've liked that to be developed in s8, for sure!
Lol, you said in a comment below you'd like Harry to be the bid bad. I still don't get why you dislike him so, is it just because of s9?
Morally dubious yes but bad no!
Absolutely. But I really don't trust the writers when it comes to do him justice...
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:07 pm (UTC)Sorry what to be developed in s8? Is confused...
I don't think I explained myself very well. I wouldn't mind Harry being the big bad in terms of morally dubious decision making getting him kicked out in the cold (incidentally this is what the s10 storyline implies except I don't think the writers will be remotely brave enough to follow through with it). He just whined so much in s9 and spent his time being ineffectual that I wanted to punch him lol. Also, I found it annoying how he is allowed to do all of this questionable stuff consistently and everyone else gets kicked off the grid for it. I don't hate him prior to s9 I suppose. Actually, I suppose I don't hate him at all but he was very, very annoying in s9.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:18 pm (UTC)Agree. Like we said somewhere else (losing tracks lol), I miss the scenes we had in the past series, the little discussions between the characters, the scenes at home. But in s7 and 8, in spite of the lack of such scenes, and, yes, too much action imo and not enough characterization, the actors could compensate it with good acting and build strong characters anyway. In s9, it was no longer possible.
Sorry what to be developed in s8? Is confused...
The Ruth/Cyprus storyline, did you expect it to be developed in s8 or s9? Because you didn't say, so I was a bit confused by this part of your comment.
I get you re s9 Harry. I miss s7 Harry actually. The thing is, Ruth came back, which is good, but since she came back, Harry is not as badass as he used to be. And I miss badass Harry...
I wouldn't mind Harry being the big bad in terms of morally dubious decision making getting him kicked out in the cold
I wouldn't mind either, except I have a weird feeling that with these writers it will be messy and bad. I do hope I'm wrong though...
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:25 pm (UTC)Actually, I felt that s7 had very strong characterisation in terms of Jo (the sexual assault trauma), Lucas (prison trauma), Ros (talks with Jo, getting to know what made her tick more), and even Connie with the traitor storyline. I also think we learnt alot more about Harry. But to the last bit of your sentence YES I AGREE.
I expected it in s9 when they started bandying about the word "traitor." I have no idea what the writers were trying to do with Ruth in s8. She was all over the place- one thing nine writers did get right imo.
I really liked early Harry and Ruth dynamics and ALSO 2.5 WHEN HE PUTS HIS ARM AROUND ZOE AND COMFORTS HER. HEARTS. Love s7 Harry too! I have to agree with you. Since Ruth came back Harry got wimpier.
You're not the first person to doubt the writing in s10. I can't wait for Hestia's recaps.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:35 pm (UTC)Hmm, sorry, I didn't think of s7, but s8. The character development could have been better in this one, but I didn't really mind. Actually, if I have to complain, too much of Lucas and his Sarah business and not enough Ros dealing with killing Jo imo, and not enough Ruth and Cyprus history, and Tariq= no development. It's a shame too.
Ah, all right. Well, certainly Ruth was better-used in s9, but I think it's because Ros was gone and they decided to under-use Beth, so major female character had to be Ruth, and at least she had a "proper part to play" in this. I liked the Harry/Ruth storyline, that's the only thing I thought was great in s9, they have good scened together, even if it means no more badass Harry.
Oh and I read
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 03:08 pm (UTC)there is something about this storyline that is unfinished, and we will never know what the key to Real!Lucas's story was. That's what angers me the most.
Yes! One of the Spooks forumers described it as being like a football match with a star player where everything was lined up perfectly for goal (ie the Russia/Harry/trust/torture trajectory) and then the star player got bored and couldn't be bothered to kick the ball into the goal and missed completely in another direction (Lucas is John). The star player then wonders why everyone on his team is angry at him. I can't wait to find some Harry/Lucas fic meta on this subject. Eventually I will get around to writing some.
You have a point re rewatching seven and eight but I know many will find it hard to unremember. Yes, for me though Lucas is forever trapped in space and time, waiting to be remembered by some writers somewhere so the rest of his story can be told. That's a pitiful waste. Unncessarily so.
This is why I felt betrayed. They took the liberty of erasing everything that had been built, and therefore erased emotional bonds as well. Because I couldn't care about s9 Lucas, he was not Lucas anymore.
Me too. Lucas is John is Nothing. He is the quote from Macbeth personified.
"It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
I disliked the s2 Robin Hood finale because I thought it was a case of show suicide (this turned out to be true... I mean what was that show without the Guy/Robin/Marian love triangle. Those writers shot themselves in the foot but the characters retained their belivability, their realness).
But NotLucas! was a case of somebody who you could never ever care about because he was never ever explained. Why did he act as he did? How did he operate as the character Lucas? And more importantly, why did Lucas always feel so much more real than his supposed real personality of John. As a writer, you've got to make us believe in the characters and their stories. John was an enigma, a cipher, a question mark. The show even said so. "I am nothing," he said to Harry. No Lucas, you were and could have been so, so much more...
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 05:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 05:41 pm (UTC)I liked Nia's suggestion that s9 was an elaborate plot of Lucas' to get on a plane to Barbados so he could meet with Ros who got tired of MI5, escaped the explosion and ran away somewhere without "commies in ponchos" :P
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 09:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 09:49 pm (UTC)I wanted to write a whole s9 AU fic about this, but I know I won't have the time, so maybe I'll just write an AU s9 ending, like you did with your Dimitri fic. I can't stop thinking about this storyline, I wanted it to be developed so badly!
I didn't like the RH s2 finale either, but I think it's a good example of an unpleasant storyline that made some sense, unlike Spooks s9. I do agree that it was show suicide, and actually I've been thinking about AUs to this one too! But s1 and s2 Guy wasn't erased from the surface of the earth by this, unlike s7 and s8 Lucas in s9.
And more importantly, why did Lucas always feel so much more real than his supposed real personality of John. As a writer, you've got to make us believe in the characters and their stories. John was an enigma, a cipher, a question mark. The show even said so. "I am nothing," he said to Harry. No Lucas, you were and could have been so, so much more...
Absolutely. And this is why I say it this John thing wasn't meant to be. Lucas was built as a character, he made sense and he had enough background not to need this storyline. John was a superficial, non-existent character. Lucas was a proper character. That's all.
I've re-watched 8.8 recently, and, honestly, didn't the s9 writers watch it? The whole speech he has in Sarah's hospital room when he says she betrayed humanity in general and she disgusts him. He can't become John Bateman in the next episode. He just can't. Especially with the liar storyline they came up with. If Lucas had been John, he would never have said that. not like that, anyway. He was meant to be so much more, and we will never know...
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:14 pm (UTC)I thought that the Robin Hood s2 finale was an example of shock over sense. They paid for it in s3 which I never even got through despite RA. The thing about that was, it was five minutes in the whole series that was dicey. Spooks was an entire series and potentially three if you include 7 and 8.
WE WILL KNOW. WE WILL TAKEOVER THE WORLD WITH OUR AU FIC. THERE SHOULD BE A SPOOKATHON LUCASATHON WHERE WE ALL TRY TO FINISH OFF HIS STORY. NAY?
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:23 pm (UTC)Hmm, agree about RH. There was much, much better things to do with this finale, especially as the Marian/Guy relationship had had an evolution in the last eps of s2, so why not carry on with that? Okay, the actress wanted to leave, or so I've heard, but still... I think they could've done it differently.
Shock over sense? Didn't you think the same thing about Spooks s9? Haha RH s3 is rubbish, you didn't miss anything. The last eps and the ending are just ridiculous!
WE WILL KNOW. WE WILL TAKEOVER THE WORLD WITH OUR AU FIC. THERE SHOULD BE A SPOOKATHON LUCASATHON WHERE WE ALL TRY TO FINISH OFF HIS STORY. NAY?
I'm up for it! ;)
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:28 pm (UTC)Agree about the shock over sense bit anyway, at least partly. It was the easy way, but not totally unbelievable, that's what I think.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:31 pm (UTC)It was believable to me that Guy would kill Marian after what she said (it was a crime of passion), but for Marian to act that way was very out of character compared to previous eps. Also, that was less about characters and more about styming your own legend. YOU CANNOT HAVE ROBIN HOOD WITHOUT MARIAN. YOU CANNOT.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:28 pm (UTC)The Guy/Marian thing imo was the most interesting thing the show had going for it. I don't think Lucy Griffiths wanted to leave actually. That was bandied about but never proven.
They were both a case of shock over sense but at least Robin Hood didn't make sense in the last five minutes of 2.8. Spooks didn't make sense throughout all of s9 in terms of Lucas.
I feel like I will watch it eventually to catch Guy's backstory with his sister Isobel or whatever her name was...
WE CAN DO IT ON THE ROS/LUCAS COMM.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-23 10:44 pm (UTC)Agree about OOC Marian. I just hated the "I love RH, I'm going to marry RH" bit. Also, the previous eps showed us a Marian that seemed to dislike Guy less and less, so why would she deliberately provoke and hurt him in this way? Okay, he was going to kill the King, *cough*... but still OOC from Marian.
Yep, I kept watching the show because of the Guy/Marian dynamic (okay, and the Sheriff lol). Otherwise I would probably have given up after my first episode.
The sister was Isabella, but we don't get much backstory from them except a stupid Guy&Robin backstory that came out of nowhere and was never mentioned or hinted before in the show. I didn't like it and found it ridiculous. Remind you of another show? :/
WE CAN DO IT ON THE ROS/LUCAS COMM.
YEP! It'd be great, I'll ask Nia. Actually Ros was alive in my AU and there was an angsty Ros/Lucas hurt-comfort storyline, alongside the Harry/Lucas/Russia background one. :P
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From: